In this episode we talk about the vaccines and the frequencies we do them, and why this is the case- as well as other testing and treatments we do to prevent and treat fleas, heartworm and other "worms" typically seen, especially in puppies.
One thing we did not mention is that when we speak of "coronavirus" in our dogs, it is well before COVID19 and is NOT AT ALL RELATED. Just like "the common cold" is a coronavirus, so there is one for dogs too- but it's not COVID19.
Original music by Matt Setter and friend Sean!
Original content by Matt Setter and friend, Sean!
In this episode we talk about the vaccines and the frequencies we do them, and why this is the case- as well as other testing and treatments we do to prevent and treat fleas, heartworm and other "worms" typically seen, especially in puppies.
One thing we did not mention is that when we speak of "coronavirus" in our dogs, it is well before COVID19 and is NOT AT ALL RELATED. Just like "the common cold" is a coronavirus, so there is one for dogs too- but it's not COVID19.
Original music by Matt Setter and friend Sean!
Original content by Matt Setter and friend, Sean!
Hi, I am Jme. And I'm Pate. And we are Motley Zoo Animal Rescue. This is our podcast, Rescue Shit. Woo hoo. So today we'll be talking about vaccines vaccine protocols for your animals and the policies and procedures that we do for our, our animals, which may be different. Mm-hmm. But we go with what's the most current and available information. Mm-hmm. And we are willing to adapt based on that information. Right. And, we work with our vet, so it's not like we. Make stuff up or like our ways better. Every vet is different. They don't come from just one vet school and there's always new information coming out. Well, there are also different ages too. Different ages of vets and people of different ages may vary in whether or not they're open to new ideas. Let's start at the beginning. We are gonna do our feline friends a favor and we're gonna start with cat vaccines. So one I think is important. It's not really a vaccine, but it's a test that we do. Yep. And why don't you explain about that. It's an F E L V F I V SNAP test. But it's fairly quick and you just draw some blood and you mix the blood in the solution, you drop it on this little, thing like a birth control. So it's like a covid test. Okay. Now I can say covid test. Mm-hmm. But before I know it used to be Yeah, yeah. Like pee on the stick. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Except you didn't, but yeah, exactly. Like kinda like the covid where you. Drop the solution and then it'll tell you, based on whatever the coloration is, if they're positive for F E L V, which is feline leukemia, which is highly contagious. And that usually deadly. Yeah, but I mean, the thing is, is that you, they can still live, a good life. Mm-hmm. Just not typically as long as. Someone who doesn't have F E L V and then you have to be careful'cause you don't want to transmit, that disease to others. And then the other snap that they do is, FIV, which is basically, you know, kitten cat aids, right? so it's an autoimmune, disease and it is contagious, but you can have an FIV cat living with healthy cats, and I know that some shelters don't really promote that and I just can speak from experience because I had an FIV cat. He, was a Siamese looking thick little Siamese guy, round face, super cute outside in the pouring rain. I took him in and he was like, scabby, he had diarrhea. And I'm like, Ugh, man. So when I took him to the vet, we did the snap test and he had F I V. And he was a sickly dude who like, snot rockets all the time when he sneezed. But he was happy. For as long as, we had him, we didn't have him that long because, you know, it is an autoimmune disease and he did get attacked by other bacteria. Mm-hmm. So anyway, he lived with three of my other cats, and As long as there's no fighting or biting or breeding going on. No sex. Yeah. Then yeah, FIV cats can live, but it's if there's blood transmission Yep. In a fight. Mm-hmm. Well, and in contrast, F E L V is very contagious. You can't share a water bowl, you can't share the same food bowl. Yeah. That can be a transmitter of, F E L V. Well, and it's hard for us if we have a cat with a FELV. Where are we gonna put it? Because most of our fosters have Yeah. Cats. So it is a really, really difficult one for us, which is why we like to get cats that have already been snapped by the shelter so that all of that is done before we even meet the cats. Right. But a lot of the cats aren't, not all shelters will snap test because, Well, it's expensive. It's additional, it's additional cost. But we will definitely, do that. All of our kittens who are motherless will get F E L V and F I V tested. They'll get a snap test, right? Mm-hmm. Now, some of the snap tests actually test for heartworm. Oh. Yeah, so it's a three-way, but... Which heartworm isn't very common in cats. It's more common in dogs. Exactly. But it's still there. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, cats can still get heartworm. But when there is a mom, then we test the mom. The mother. Yeah. And if the mom is negative, then the babies are negative. Because we can test the mother and F E L V F I V is gonna be transmitted in utero. So if she's negative, these babies are going to be negative as well. And that's worked for us. And like I said, not all shelters will snap test'cause of their budget, but we do that so that we don't, have any, surprises for the adopters. Well, and here's something that we used to do vaccines for F E L V. Yeah, but then we realized that if the animal went missing, came to a shelter and was tested, it would test positive for the F E L V virus because of the antibodies from the vaccine, which would mean that it would be a death sentence potentially for a cat who we knew was safe and vaccinated, but they didn't know that. So we actually stopped doing that one because, it seemed like it was more of a risk more so than it would be a benefit. But if you have a cat that goes outside and interacts with other cats then you maybe should do F E L V vaccine because your cat is interacting with other cats, right? And you don't know that it's gonna do that, but if it went stray, if it went missing, then it could end up at the shelter and be euthanized for having antibodies. I think they're trying to, Update these snap tests so that it won't show like a vaccination... Level. Yeah. So with our kittens, we start at six weeks. I know like some shelters, they will vaccinate every two weeks. Our vaccination protocol is three to four weeks in between and kittens starting at six weeks. We vaccinate our kittens with F V R C P. So basically the F V R part of the vaccination name is for feline viral rhino tracheitis. That's, you know, highly contagious and sometimes life threatening, especially babies, they get so congested. And they can pass from this'cause their bodies are just so weak. And then another one is the feline calici virus. And that's what the C stands for. And calici virus is very similar to the herpes virus that is so common. Like 90% of all cats are gonna have the herpes virus. But the problem with the calici virus is if they get the clea virus, whether they're symptomatic or not, and this one can cause like sores in their mouth. If your cat is genetically disposed, they have like a D N A strain that that calici virus can mutate into an extremely deadly virus called FIP. So FIP is feline infectious peritonitis, which is the calici virus, that can mutate. So even if they get the virus, they may or may not get FIP. Right. I suppose we could equate it to like H P V for people. Like you can get H P V and you can be fine your whole life, but a percentage of people will actually develop cancer from, H P V. Yeah. So it's a similar thing where it's better just to avoid it altogether(mm-hmm) than take the risk that your cat is going to potentially, be one of the, you know, percentage of animals that develop FIP from calici. Right. And then what's the P stand for? It's panleukopenia. So the feline panleukopenia is similar to puppy parvo. Mm-hmm. It is the same virus as the parvo virus. And you actually test the kittens for panleuk with the same, with a parvo test that is for canines. And, that one is, it's a little bit rougher, I guess, than just puppy parvo because it can attack their intestinal tracts the way that, puppies get the parvo. But, the reason why it's called Panleukopenia is that it attacks their white blood cells. Mm-hmm. And that's what makes it so fatal. And it's highly contagious. So a lot of times if you get panleukopenia, you get like, quote unquote a pan leukopenia outbreak at the shelters. The, sadly those kittens are going to... Yeah, they're, they're gonna euthanize everybody. We fortunately work with some great shelters here and. We kind of like borrow(mm-hmm) their fosters because, you know, they can't take this on and their fosters continue caring for the panleuk kittens under our direction. Yeah.'cause you can't just move them either because now their house is contaminated. Yep. You don't wanna move it to another house and contaminate it. So instead those fosters just, you know, sign up with us and, and we transfer the ownership of the cats to us. Right. And then we're in charge of the situation. And then the foster may or may not stay with us, they may go back. Right. and that's totally fine because we're borrowing them because that's the kittens'... Lifeline. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then, so we found our panleukopenia cases with the kittens is I feel like, we always lose one in a litter. Mm-hmm. Rarely do we have an entire litter survive, but. Rarely do we have an entire litter pass away. Mm-hmm. Well, that's survival of the fittest. Right. You know, some of'em are pushed to the brink and they die, and other ones can really fight through it. Exactly. And the thing is, is that, you know, we give them the chance. Mm-hmm. Again, like some of'em don't make it. And that's really sad. That's really hard on the fosters. Mm-hmm. But the, the flip side of it is, is that. If it wasn't for them, the survivors wouldn't be here. Yeah. They'd be euthanized too. Yeah. And so like, like this, this summer so far we've had two panleuk cases and the first litter, all four(mm-hmm) survived. And they're in foster to adopt homes right now. Their foster family is just hardcore. She's great. Actually, she took on another Pan Luke litter. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, it's in your house. And the thing is, is that, you know, like the older cats, just like parvo with dogs, the older animals have a better immune system. Well, and they're vaccinated hopefully. Well, you should hope that they'd be vaccinated. But I mean, they have a better immune system too. So if they do get this virus, They've been vaccinated, they, they're stronger. And so you don't really see a lot of these cases in adults, per se. Mm-hmm. As much as kittens. So, I mean, we did have a mother with kittens that were panleuk and, you know, the mother is just like, Hey, I'm so, you know, like, I'm just a little sick, but I'm fine. Mm-hmm. Whereas, you know, the, the kittens are really fragile on death's door. You gotta do subq fluids, you gotta do a lot with them, so. Mm-hmm. So besides F V R C P, there's only one other vaccine we do for cats. Rabies. Yeah, that's rabies. And why don't you give the timeframe on that? Well, it's good practice at four months to give rabies. So typically that's what, what, 16 weeks? Mm-hmm. But legally, and if you fly them and stuff like that, legally Washington recognizes that you can give rabies at 12 weeks. Mm-hmm. But a lot of vets don't really like to do it, at 12 weeks because of the whole. Vaccination schedule, right? They prefer to give the rabies at the end of it once they're finished with their vaccination cycle. But just'cause I guess, I mean, it's kind of like when we're little and we have so many vaccinations, like, do we really need three vaccinations on one day? Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, if you can spread them out and it's easier on the body than here have six vaccinations one day. Yeah. No. So FVRCP you do, we do three or four in the series. Three, three. Three in the series. And then when are they due for FVRCP next? In a year. And then, and the same thing with rabies, right? So after they're done with their series and then their rabies vaccination. You go one year. Yep. Yeah. And then after that, you go every three years for both. Sure. Well depend depending on your vet. Yeah. Some vets might continue to do FVRCP(yearly) yearly, but we recognize every three years after that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you know your cat had the proper course as a kitten and you have documentation of that, then we think every year is fine. Every three years. Yeah, every three years. I'm sorry. But if you don't know, then... Adult cats get two. Okay. The reason for that is that when they're babies, they get Some immunity from their mother's milk, which can kind of negate... This is my favorite part of the whole discussion. So the best way to describe it is that each kitten's immunity is a bowl, and the bowl has a lid of ice on it, and some lids are thick and some are thin. And the point of the vaccine is to try and get the vaccine into the bowl. Sometimes it's gonna hit the ice and it's not gonna go in. Which is a mother's milk thing. Yes. The lid of ice is the mother's immunity that they've gotten and. But then some, if it's a thick ice layer, then you need more than one vaccine to make it through into the bowl. And so you never know how much immunity the animals have. Mm-hmm. And this is why it varies and you do a series because if you do enough, Like three for a kitten. Chances are by the time they're six months old, that's when the immunity... You filled the bowl. Yeah. The immunity is worn off from their mother and you have filled the bowl with the vaccine and now they are actually vaccinated. Right. So it's not like they are fully vaccinated the first time. Some in the litter might be one, two. Mm-hmm. You never know. Right. And so this is, this is. The important part about why you have to do the vaccines multiple times and why it's important to keep on the schedule. Because if you don't keep on the schedule, then... Then you have to restart the series. You would have to restart the series because the animal's immune system might eat up the, the antibody, immunity might eat up the vaccine and it didn't get into the bowl. So, yeah, this is, that's my favorite part. Well, because it, it really explains it so clearly. Yeah. Yeah. And because other people, other times they're like, I don't understand why you have to do this. So often they don't follow the schedule. But if you explain to them why, right. Then they, the fosters are more likely to follow the schedule. Yeah. You have to follow that schedule. Otherwise you start over and it's like, seriously? Yeah.'cause that wastes our money. Yeah. And it wastes. Our time. And so, yeah. So if we have a foster that's like... You don't wanna poke a dog more than we have to, or a cat more than we have to. No. Especially a cranky cat, right? Yeah. So no, if a foster's not listening and not, they're like, oh, I'll just go next week. No, next week is too late. You need to go this week. Yeah. So it's very important that as a foster, you adhere to those kinds of policies. Right. All right, so cats are pretty easy when it comes to vaccinations. Dogs on the other hand, you know, hopefully you're not keeping'em in the house and you're socializing them and, properly. And to do that, you have to protect them from everything that's out there. And so our dogs get three, core vaccinations. Well, we consider core vaccinations, but not all vets are doing lepto yet. So the first one that we do that we wanna talk about is that the Distemper Parvo combo and it's got different names. It's got D H P P, D A P P. There's a D A P P I. There's, you know, I mean, so there's a lot of... And some of'em have the L thrown in there too. Well, that's for the lepto. I know. But, if yours has an L in it, then you've already gotten the lepto. Right. But you're not gonna get that as a baby baby. Mm-hmm. Whereas, so kind of like with the kittens, it is a series and we have found that again, in shelters, they'll vaccinate puppies every two weeks mm-hmm. With the DH p p or whatever. The D is for canine distemper. Canine distemper is a potentially fatal disease. And I mean, there are survivors. It's 50 50 pretty much. Well I had one once a little guy. He was a little whippet and it had progressed to the point where, he got the neuro symptoms and he was trembling and he couldn't stand up and so we gave him, you know, like a week and it seemed like he was getting worse. And we had to hold him up to go potty. And so Bryan and I, like one night we were like, all right, if he doesn't show any improvement tomorrow, then that's it. Like he can't do this. And the next morning he got up and walked on his own and he is like, no, no. No, I'm fine. I heard you talking and I'm totally fine. I'm not milking this anymore. Right. And he got up and he kind of loses a balance a little bit. And, he shakes a little bit. Mm-hmm. But he is perfectly normal and he lives a very nice life now. Yeah. Fortunately we don't see too many distemper cases. The distemper cases that we've gotten have been, from Texas. Mm-hmm. And then we had that random puppy that we found. Mm-hmm. That was a quote unquote stray. Someone found it on its trail and you know, like, did you really? Mm-hmm. Or, I mean,'cause you get a lot of the, oh, I found this dog. Mm-hmm. But it's really your. Freaking dog, and it's kind of obvious that it's your damn dog. Mm-hmm. And this was like, you know, like a little two month old Chihuahua thingy. Mm-hmm. So it's not like he was running the woods of Redmond on his own. So they probably knew something was wrong. They knew they didn't want it, or couldn't afford to take him to the vet to fix it. So they figured they'd leave him or they pretend that they, that he, that they found him, they found him on the trail and know that if they get him to the vet into the right hands, then maybe Right. He'll survive. And then he did not. He was little. When he started showing the neuro symptoms with the seizures(mm-hmm) we had to let him go. But we've, I mean, we've had success stories. Mm-hmm. Figaro was his name. Firo. Yeah. And we had, we had a lab that was mm-hmm. At PAWS they had taken a transport, From Texas, and this was a while ago. Mm-hmm. Like before Covid. It was a while ago. And, thought, you know, I mean,'cause Distemper shows up as bronchial issue mm-hmm. Issues. So they're like, oh, it looks like he's got kennel cough. Kennel cough. Yeah. And he did not, he had distemper. And sadly with him, he passed away. But another dog on that transport with distemper, she survived. Mm. And while it was, you know, bittersweet, we did have a survivor, but we did lose that lab. And, it's hard because they're like really sweet, you know, and he wasn't a baby. No. But, that's why you vaccinate. Mm-hmm. So d is for distemper. And then the other, things in the. Distemper Parvo combo Vaccination is a canine adenovirus, and, there's two types and so we cover both types. The P is for parvovirus. Mm-hmm. Which again, is a deadly, deadly disease. Especially for puppies. Mm-hmm. We have been fortunate that the majority of the parvo, puppies that we get do survive. Yeah. Because we spend$5,000 on their vet care. Uh, Clark. Clark Griswold was 20,000. Well, there you go. But when you have a Parvo puppy, you're looking at least, at least like 5,000. Yeah. That's what you have to budget per puppy. Yeah, but I mean, and Clark was not getting better and he had to have multiple transfusions. But that's like over a thousand dollars per is the transfusion. But that's usually what saves them. Yeah, usually. And, it gives'em that boost that they need. Because the thing is, is it's a virus. It has to run its course. They're vomiting, they're having diarrhea, they're getting dehydrated. So dehydration, iss a, one of the number one killers mm-hmm. When it comes to parvo. So you have to have'em on like IV fluids. You have to get them to eat. It's basically supportive care and you can do it at home. Mm-hmm. But Clark, there are cases that you cannot do it from home. Like Clark, he had a litter of four. So we budgeted 5,000. Mm-hmm. For, when the, rescue reached out and was like, Hey, we've got parva. We're like, holy crap. And there's four of'em. And I'm like, oh, 20,000. Now we're gonna have to ask for$20,000. And fortunately Rusty Griswold, who we still have, is available for adoption- and his sister. Audrey. They did not have to be hospitalized. Yeah. So we spent all 20,000 on Clark. Well, and we went over because Ellen, it's funny'cause the kid names were fine, but the adult names were in the hospital. But Ellen like recovered pretty quickly. Mm-hmm. And she was able to go home fairly quickly. But Clark, he was in the hospital for days. And days. Yeah. And it's like a thousand dollars a day for hospital care too. Yeah. And then he was getting depressed. He's a baby. So we had to take our chances and we're like, let to get him home and let him be with his mom and his siblings and, and then Yep. And he turned around. He got better. But he really needed that hospitalization of he wouldn't be here. And then now he's with a wonderful family that adopted him. He's got a big dog sister to play with. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So, p is for canine parvovirus and the other p is for parainfluenza. But that's not necessarily the canine flu vaccine. No, no, it's not. It's totally different. Mm-hmm. And then, so there's another one, and then, I mean, you can get more, like they've got combinations for the coronavirus, the canine coronavirus, but that's not considered a core vaccination, you know? Mm-hmm. But we typically do the. D A two p p, the d a p P, the D H P P, whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, you wanna call it we do'em at six weeks. And then every three to four weeks. And we do a vaccination series of, four I'm gonna say D H P P for consistency. Mm-hmm. We do, a series of four dhpp if they are with us at six weeks and we start at six weeks and then, Every three weeks until we do four. For the power breeds, like the pit bulls, and the shepherds. We have had cases(mm-hmm) of older puppies and that had been vaccinated, like eight months old, getting parvo. So, we do that one extra, the fifth one per power breeds. And again, this isn't something that we just came up with randomly. This is a course that we've discussed with our vets. So, not all vets do that. And you know what? And that's fine. And that's why if you adopt a puppy from us, we tell you what we've done, and then your vet determines the next steps for your dog. Mm-hmm. the other thing that dogs get from us is bordetella, which is kennel cough. Kennel cough vaccine. Yeah. Yeah. No, we don't want, we don't get the, give them. Yeah. No. Thankfully. That's pretty rare, but it happens. Oh, it happens. I mean, you can go to the vet. There's a dog there that has kennel cough. You go to a dog park, there's a dog there that has kennel cough. That's most likely where it's gonna come from. Right? You could be walking your dog by another dog with kennel cough, and he coughs, and like, lo and behold, your dog got coughed on. But it's just like a cold, you know? I mean, it's like us going to the office. Okay? I don't right now. But back in the day when you went to the office, you were around a bunch of people. Some people were sick. Mm-hmm. They would have a cold, and then you might get that cold. You might not get that cold. And that's a thing with dogs in Yeah. Boit. Oh, it's like the flu shot. Right. And then, so if a dog gets bordetella vaccination, Then they might get kennel cough, but they're not going to get it to the severity that they would if they didn't have the vaccination. Kennel cough can turn into pneumonia. Yeah. That's when it gets dangerous when it's for an old dog or young dog. If they just can't fight it off on their own. Mm-hmm. That's when kennel cough becomes a big deal. Right. And then they may need antibiotics. They may need a cough suppressant. But otherwise we don't run to the vet for kennel cough because it is a virus and typically antibiotics are not gonna help it. It will help prevent secondary bacterial infections, but it will not help the dog get better and it leads to drug resistant strains. Right? So, if your dog is relatively healthy and normal, it's better not to. Right. In our opinion, our non veterinary opinion. Right. It's better to let them fight it off. Right, exactly. Build up their immunity on their own. Mm-hmm. But we also vaccinate every six months. Yes. And this is, something that is really a problem, between us and a lot of vets, or at least there's a disconnect between the client being the middleman. And so some vets. Do six month schedule. Some vets do annual. Typically, if you don't tell your vet that you're boarding or going to daycare, they will choose annual. Mm-hmm. But if you are boarding and going to daycare, then you should do six months. Mm-hmm. And most vets would be fine with that. Most vets would recommend that. Most vets are happy to comply with policies of daycare and boarding facilities that ask for that, I think... I think the vets who have their own boarding facility require six months. Probably. But here's where we get into an argument is that the client will come back and say, well, my vet said that they only need it every year. And we say, okay, that's great. But in our experience, Those that are in that latter six months of their vaccine, the efficacy is waning and they are more likely to be susceptible to it. So if you just keep it quote unquote fresh with every six months, then your dog is gonna be less likely one, to spread it in two to get it. And if they do get it, it's gonna be mild. Yeah. Not as bad. And so I think the disconnect has been that the vet just says, well, this is what we do, and the people take that as like written in stone and come back to us and then argue with us. Mm-hmm. We actually had to write a letter to our clients, begging them to advocate for their animals to, you know, support our policy because we don't want your dogs getting sick. And it will happen more likely if we like... If we get lax. If we give into that year system, which isn't recommended for dogs that are boarding or in daycare. So we just say, please tell your vet that your dog is in boarding in daycare, and that it is a requirement of the facility, and 99% of'em will do it. Mm-hmm. But it's the people coming back at us like we're asking for something unreasonable. Right. Because, Their vet is God. And God said, you don't need it, but you didn't give them all the details either, right? Mm-hmm. And your dog is going to be the one that suffers our business is going to be the one that suffers if animals are sick. Well, and the other, the other dogs. I mean, you're, it's fine if you're like, oh, my dog's healthy and he doesn't need it, but, What if he gets it and he hurts the other dogs that are around him in the facility? I mean, you're being, I'm not saying you're being selfish. Well, it's just like covid. It's like the people that didn't want a mask and, you know, they're like, well, so do you not care about the people around you? And then the people, so it's... It's the old, the ones who are gonna be more susceptible because like we have seniors. Yeah, we have puppies. You have to think beyond your healthy, vibrant dog to the ones who may be more susceptible. Well, well, and when your dog gets older, do you want other people being so callously, thoughtless with your dog and their health? You don't. So a lot of times it's frustrating when we have to argue our policies because they are for the best interest of all the animals. Yeah. Including yours and why vets argued with us on this one. I, I don't know, before it was the giardia... The giardia antigen. And we had to give in because it was so ridiculous that it was a daily argument with clients, vets. And the one vet loved putting us in the middle, and she made us the enemy and she purposely antagonized those clients. And I was just, I was appalled, but we're gonna lose because we're not vets, even though we have a lot of experience with groups of dogs, with herd experience. But again, I mean, it's, a lot of it is, like that opinion because our vet is the one who said yes. If the Giardia antigen test, if it's positive, you definitely treat it, the first time. Mm-hmm. It's positive. Because then that means that there, there might have been a recent... Yeah, they're fighting an infection. Right. And that's undeniable. They're fighting an infection and that infection could result... But yeah, but you know what, now that I'm thinking about it, like so the Eliza is an antibody test, right? For Giardia.'cause they're fighting Giardia, right? Mm-hmm. But, The Coronavirus vaccination was also an antibody. Mm-hmm. And if that was positive, then it's like, oh, you got Corona. Right. So how come the antigen for Giardia? They're like, no, they don't have it. Right. This is what's so frustrating, is that if any vets are out there, can you, can you answer that? Yeah. It's a, it's a question. We're not bashing vets. No. We wanna seriously understand why it's blanketly accepted for humans. And then when it comes to dogs, it's like, I don't know, it's like the antichrist of stuff. Well, I mean, and I get it. Vet stuff. I mean,'cause giardia is a pain in the ass. I mean, giardia is everywhere. G is like, it's so annoying. And it's so simple to treat though. That's the problem. Well just treat it! Well. No, remember that one dog that had to like be treated for freaking ever, they got this dog from a breeder with Giardia. And they wanted to bring it to daycare, and it's just like, oh, nope. Positive. Oh no. Still positive. Well, and the vet... Oh my God, she's so positive. The vet was arguing with us that the Elisa was positive, but the dog didn't have Giardia and we wouldn't let the dog in. And we said, you go ahead and do a float next time, because that dog's gonna have eggs in that. And sure enough, we were right. The vet was so mad that we were right, that it meant that it was just waiting for, you know, an outbreak. And we don't want that outbreak to be in our yard. Well, not, not just an our yard, but I mean, like, come on, dogs are gross. They're poop eaters. So like... Like why isn't deworming just a regular? And, and I think I, I think the vets. Do like deworm. But not giardia. They well it, well, yeah. They don't do like an annual, like, here you go, you know? Well, no, they do, but annual isn't enough. No, but I'm saying an annual fenbendazole or whatever. Oh, like normally? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why you wouldn't just do it every six months at least. You know what else doesn't show up on a fecal really well? Tape worms. No. You know, like, you don't even know they have tape worms until they're totally infested. And if you're not like picking up their poop every day, which you should be by the way. Mm-hmm. If you may not even see the segments, you know, and be like, Ooh, gross. That's tape worm. Yeah. You can usually tell'cause the poop is dancing. But you have to be picking it up. And you're infested by them. Right. You know? Well, the other thing is with Giardia is that a lot of times the vets will say if there are no symptoms, but how often do people really go out and examine their dogs, poop, their dog's pooping on the other side of the yard, you know, a hundred feet away. They don't know whether or not the dog has symptoms. And how many times have we seen Giardia that's asymptomatic. Well, that's what I'm saying. Many, many, many. It doesn't, it doesn't matter if they're symptomatic or not. But that's what the vet says. If it's not symptomatic, then we're not gonna treat. So we found out like Axl. He is not symptomatic. He's got perfect poop. Okay. But we did the senior panel on him, because we're like, why is he so quiet? Yeah. Why is he the anti husky? You know, and because he came to us with problems. If he didn't have initial problems, it's not like we would just randomly run a blood test. We run blood tests on our dogs anyway, but we did an another one on him just because he's a weirdo and. With the fecal. He was positive for Giardia. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, are you kidding me? And, and he's been like treated like,'cause we always treat. We treat prophylactically. Exactly. Meaning like without testing we treat, we treat all animals. Yeah. With specific dewormers because it's very likely. Mm-hmm. And it's cheaper to treat than to test and then treat. And he's not a poop eater. Mm-hmm. But this leads us to the fact that. Giardia, especially around here, is so common because... It's ridiculous. It has to do with puddles and water in the ground. And so, you know... A bird can fly over your yard and poop. Yeah. So we've digressed away from vaccines to... Giardia. Giardia, but it is a core issue for us. And so for boarding, for example, it is a core thing that we do test for. So when you go to board and daycare, they should ask, at least in this part of the country, they should ask for a fecal. Yeah. And whether or not they ask for the Elisa Antigen test, you don't know. We don't ask for it anymore, but we do the fecals more frequently also. We do fecals every four months. Yes. And it used to be every six when we could do the elisa. Yeah. Yeah. Because the Elisa helped us feel more confident(mm-hmm) that we were catching Giardia in between. Right. And I would say that while our daycare was not a source of Giardia(mm-hmm) we saw more Giardia when we stopped doing the ELISA test. Yeah, that's true. But we got so tired of arguing with the vets. I couldn't do it one more time. Right. And we had to just back down and change our policy. Right. Which I find ridiculous. Right? Yeah. Why should we have to change our policy about our facility when we are going a step above and beyond to keep the dogs healthy And the vets are telling us It's too much. Don't, don't do it. It's not all the vets though. It's not all the vets. Okay. It was the majority of them. You have no idea how many times I argued this, that I didn't tell you. I know specific, but I know a specific that well. I just couldn't even, I couldn't even muster a fight anymore. I just said forget it. And we gave up. Part of our vaccination routine is to de-worm, so now I'm gonna come full circle. So we, at two weeks we can start with a little bit of pyrantel, which is strongid So that's one kind of dewormer. Yeah. And it only does. Certain things. Yeah. And it's pretty gentle on like roundworm, I think strongid the best thing for round worms. Like you just give it to'em and the next day they're pooping worms. Well, and roundworms... That's why I don't eat spaghetti. Roundworms is one of the most common at that age, too. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean like every puppy, like seriously. I, I have never, I'm trying to think, have I ever had a puppy not have worms? I mean, they're all fricking warmy little things, you know? Mm-hmm. And granted, we've got mothers that are probably not taken care of mm-hmm. To the standards that we take care of ours, you know, and probably they haven't been vaccinated, they haven't had, good care. Especially the ones that I'm doing now, like Papa, his mom wasn't very well taken care of. Mm-hmm. And those puppies are not as thrifty they should be. And I already dewormed them and they did, they did totally poop out some round worms. Well, and that's the hard part, is that you give the dewormer and then you see the worms coming out. Mm-hmm. And that's the gross part. Mm-hmm. But it is working. Yeah. That they're dying and that's why they're coming out. Exactly. I love it. I mean, I don't know that I, I, I, that's the reason why I like strongid is because it's almost instant that I see Yeah. Like relief. Whereas like if I use fenbendazole, I don't see the quickness(mm-hmm) that I do with the strongid. And maybe that's a personal thing. Like someone can be like, well, ours do it, and, you know, that's totally fine. But they do different things, so you can't just choose one over the other. Well, and then you can give the strongid it is just one dose. Mm-hmm. And basically, it's the first dewormer. And then we used to do ponazuril because we were seeing a lot of cases of coccidia and now we're not seeing a lot of coccidia. What's coccidia? Coccidia is mostly transmitted through... It's a parasite. Rabbit poop. A parasite in rabbit poop. It can also be in farm animals, so if you have puppies around farm animals, there's a good chance that they have coccidia or they will get coccidia. Mm-hmm. And this is also something that is transmissible in a daycare or boarding setting if you have poop eaters especially. But coccidia, you can find on the fecal float. Yes. Yes. coccidia floats. Giardia eggs do not float. Yeah. And they are also so intermittent. One day you look, there will be none. The next day you look and there's 10,000. Yeah. So that's the tricky thing about Giardia and that's why we felt it was so important to treat it when you see it on the elisa because it means that those eggs are coming. Or Yeah. Typically. You're fighting it then and there. So that's our deworming protocol. Two weeks is the earliest, but we, you know, we'll typically do like four weeks. Mm-hmm. And then we do the first D H P P at six weeks, and then We'll do another Dewormer, which is Panacur. Mm-hmm. Fenbendazole. So, fenbendazole is your generic name. Panacur is a brand name. Mm-hmm. And, we'll do, a five day prophylactic course for Giardia, but it takes care of a lot of other worms. It's a broad spectrum dewormer, but we know the bonus is that it takes care of giardia at the same time. Okay, so we've talked about the Distemper Parvo combo. So that starts at six weeks, every three to four weeks. And then Borella we do once because we do an oral borella, and it doesn't really need a booster. So the first bordetella vaccination that we do is at nine weeks. Obviously, you know, if they're older, they're gonna get one regardless. But if we have newborn puppies, very young puppies, it starts at nine weeks and then every six months continuing from there. Hopefully they're adopted. So we don't have to continue every six months, but I'm just saying mm-hmm. If they're with us, it's six months. And the distemper parvo. If we get older dogs, if we get dogs who are six months and older, we'll do, two. Okay. So similar to, so we'll, yeah. So we'll do one and then we'll do another booster. Because we're hoping that. Well, we know that their mother's ice lid of mm-hmm. Immunity is gone. Right. But we do two because it's one for good measure. Because their immune system could be ramped up to eat up the first vaccine. So the second is for good measure to ensure that one of them got through. Right. And then what's the next one? And then the next one that we do is not considered a core vaccination. It is considered, it's still considered elective, but a lot of vets are starting to jump on the leptosporosis. Bandwagon. It's not a bandwagon. Why would I say that? Well, especially in this area. Like people like dog daycares and boarding facilities in Arizona have no idea about giardia. They don't, they don't test for it. Because it's so dry. It's so dry, they have no need for it. We here in Washington, it's wet. There's puddles. Again, where it's similar to Giardi out where it's a similar kind of way to get it and it comes from wildlife. Yeah. The main culprit is deer, urine to be specific. And so when you're walking in the woods, or if you're in an environment like here, where deer will walk through your yard, You definitely want to get your leptosporosis shots. Leptosporosis it's highly contagious but it causes urging... Extremely deadly. Yeah. It causes, organ failure. Mm-hmm. So if, your dog is lucky enough to survive lepto, it's going to be a little bit costly because they're gonna be in the hospital. And because it causes organ failure, your dog most likely will have chronic organ issues. So whether it is, ongoing chronic, renal insufficiency or, something like that... A$25 shot is gonna be way better than risking it long term. Two$25 shot. Right. So you do the first one. Yeah. And then you do a booster in three to four weeks. Yep. And that's it. And then an annual every year. And that one doesn't go every three years. It's every year. Just like a flu shot. I mean the distemper shot is you get your boosters, you get your annual, then you get one every three years. Mm-hmm. same thing with rabies and then again, With our puppies. the vets do like to give the puppies the rabies at 16 weeks. But they may give ours earlier, depending. Right. Well, this is also too why we say they have age appropriate vaccines. Mm-hmm. When we adopt out an animal, because every animal that comes to us is of a different age, has a different history, has a certain. Or no vaccine history, but we can only do what we can do when they're in our care. Mm-hmm. And so if you adopt a puppy, you know, in between their D H P P series, you might be responsible for two dhpp or you might be responsible for three or one. Or another lepto. So... Or the rabies. Right. So we do everything we can when they're in our care, but especially if you're adopting a puppy, a puppy more so than a kitten, but. A puppy that there's a chance that we quote unquote, haven't done everything because the puppy's not old enough yet. Right, exactly. And the thing is, is also like, like with the rabies, like I said, Washington state recognizes rabies at 12 weeks, but not all vets will do them that early. Well, and I don't know what other states recognize either. It might be different in other states. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I don't, we haven't researched it.'cause you know, we're in Washington. We're in Washington. That's all we need to know. Upon occasion we might throw in a coronavirus. Because there was that one time it was spreading. Mm-hmm. Because some people were, and it was funny because they were trying to blame it on rescues. Oh. Bringing dogs from overseas? No, it was breeders and Yeah, but it was breeders. It's the people who were buying puppies from like Korea with their little handmade toy, little thingies. Because those people aren't gonna invest in the animal and their health. They're just gonna ship off whatever. Whereas rescues and shelters, Are investing in the animal's care, and therefore they've put money into making sure those animals are not sick, that they have vaccinations. So it is never going to be a rescue or a shelter that is contributing to, you know, that temper. Yeah. That kind of thing or whatever. It's gonna be the people doing it for profit who mm-hmm. Who benefit more from skimping on the medical care. Right. They're, they're gonna cut corners because it gets them more money. When we had to do the coronavirus shots and there was a huge uproar about rescues bringing in dogs from other countries. I was like, how old did you, because in the article it said it was a three month old puppy. And I'm like, how old did you say? Because internationally, we as a rescue are not allowed to take anything under six months. Yep. So when the article said three months, I was like, someone bought themselves a dog. Yeah. And of course, rescues and shelters get vilified. Mm-hmm. And unscrupulous greedy breeders win. Yeah. Well, and so it also happened that during the pandemic, the CDC. There was a puppy transported with rabies, similar situation, like everyone is confident it's a breeder, but the C d C shut down 140 or 114 countries. Yeah. Countries from shipping animals, from quote unquote rabies endemic places. Mm-hmm. Including the rescues that we worked with in Thailand and Korea. Mm-hmm. And I mean, at the time, shipping animals was prohibitive anyways. Right. Because Coronavirus is so expensive. Yeah. Yeah. It went from$500 a dog to$2,500 a dog. Yeah. And so no one was shipping animals anyways. And of course, nevermind. Now we have our own problem in our own country, in our own state... Right. With overpopulation. Right. So we're not looking outside there anyways, but, but, um, but it was a similar thing. And actually there are still many, many countries that are on the band list still, including Thailand, which I don't know, I think I think I saw something where they, they just went to, I wanna say California. Hmm. They just ship some dogs right now. They're fighting. Um, you know, the meat trade. Well, and then let's talk about the canine flu, which is a vaccine that is elective. Um, and, but there have been outbreaks on the East coast. And Midwest that were killing dogs, rampantly. But we still weren't considering it a core or even something we really needed to worry about here. Yeah. We did it when we got a grant. Of, canine flu vaccines so that we could do it. Mm-hmm. But it is not a wise investment for us to do. Right. But it is certainly something that, an owner could do mm-hmm. Electively later. Right. But thankfully we haven't had that deadly strain come by here, so, no. I don't even know how many vets actually carry the flu shot around here. I know that there's one daycare who requires it. Really? Yeah. I thought it was weird. Yeah, that is a little strange. I mean, I guess I could understand why, like if I thought we could quote, unquote get away with it in the sense that we are, aren't already battling enough issues with the vets. Mm-hmm. I would say, sure, let's do it. But I don't, we were already battling too many core issues. Well, I don't know that we've had any like, Strength, like flu things come up. No. So why? You know, because if it came, it would kill the animals. And now with animals traveling so much, I mean, all it takes is someone moving from Chicago to come here and bring it, which is why we also had a two week quarantine. Right. For the daycare, you could not just get an animal from anywhere and bring it to our daycare. Yeah. For two weeks because you had to wait and see if it. Broke with something. Yeah. And that was from a breeder, from another friend, from anywhere. If it the dog was new to you for two weeks, you did not bring it to the daycare. Yeah. And that helped prevent a lot of illnesses from coming through. And that would technically, hopefully, prevent the canine flu from coming through. If we're quarantining our dogs, you're gonna have to quarantine your dogs too. Right. And breeder dogs get parvo. Oh, we know from this for a fact. They have a lot of problems. One of the other things that isn't a vaccine that, that we should talk about though, because we sometimes test for it is heartworm and Oh, we're doing a whole segment on heartworm though. Okay. But let's just briefly touch on it here because, You know why, like, why we test for it? And you know why we might not because, so remember, Pablo's person was like, why didn't you test for this? And I said, because...'Cause he came from Yakima. Yeah. So, so why don't you talk quickly about that. So heartworm is prevalent. In the warmer climates, the southern states, it's like epidemic, right? Florida, if you get a dog off the street, I mean, shit, Texas too. Like if you get a dog off the street, you're gonna test right away for heartworm, and it's gonna be 50 50 if it comes back positive or negative. And, the problem with the heartworm is that they can have heartworm, but it's immature. And the heartworm snap test only tests for antigens produced by adults. So it takes about like six months for, a larva microfillaria to mature into an adult heartworm who's gonna like, You know, start latching onto things and start eating away at the heart. So this is why we don't test any animals or any dogs under six months because it's pointless. It's pointless. And then we do test when they come in from a heartworm endemic place. Even if they already have a heartworm test, because we've had that happen before. Mm-hmm. Where they did a heartworm test and it was negative. And then they ended up having heartworm. Mm-hmm. And then one time we took a dog that was supposed to have been native to Washington and it had heartworm. Yeah. But that was because he was a stray at the shelter. So was he really native to Washington? Right. And we don't know. Mm-hmm. But we can't spend money on something that isn't a typical problem here. Right now it's not epidemic, right. So, like the dogs that come to us from Eastern Washington, for example, and, Yakima.'cause we've been taking a lot of Yakima dogs. We won't necessarily heartworm test them. Well, mostly they're puppies too. That's why, I mean, most of them are puppies. I know. But even when we get adult ones, we're not gonna test'em. It's starting to show because of, the movement of animals from the rescues from outta state, bringing the dogs in. Mm-hmm. Are, you know, are they vetting people? Are you educating them? Is it part of your adoption process to say, Hey, They came from a heartworm state, you better continue heartworm. Mm-hmm. Preventatives for at least six months. Mm-hmm. Because you have to kill off the larvae. Right. That may not show up on a heartworm test. Well, and the thing is, is that the preventative won't treat so, If you skip a month or you know you are not doing it, and then you decide to do it, you have to get a heartworm test to make sure they don't have it, so that you're not trying to prevent something that they already have. And then it also is not going to treat it, and the treatment is very expensive, very time consuming, very. Unfun for your dog and literally like their heart could explode so... Well, it's not, it's not that the heart explodes, it's the embolism from well to your heart could explode. That is the best way to describe it. Because it could not be your heart. It could be your lungs, it could be your brain, wherever. But you have to keep them confined and from doing activities. Yeah. And that you gotta keep'em from pumping that heart. So see, the heart could explode and. Basically your heart, your dog will just keel over and die. It's not exploding. It's like the heart sending out missiles that could like contact. Okay, well either way it's disastrous. It is. And you wanna avoid it. So it's much cheaper and easier to prevent it. Especially if you've had a negative heartworm test, then keep on preventing it. So the heartworm medication, like HeartGuard Revolution, Simparica Trio, not just Empirica'cause you've gotta get that heartworm medication in there kills the microfillaria, it kills the larva, it prevents them from being adults. The revolution will not. It's supposed to prevent heartworm, but... It prevent, it prevents the adults from adulting. Okay. Because it kills the babies. Okay. So the heartworm preventative is actually a baby killer. It's a larva killer. Well, and then I guess if we're talking about heartworm preventative, maybe we should talk about just quickly flea treatment too. Yeah. And that's why like, some people like the Simparica Trio'cause it's oral, it's easy. Whatever. Is it monthly or is it like one of those three months? Yeah, so, um, I don't, so there is something like pro heart or something like that, that is actually three months, six month, yeah. And I think they do an annual, I think it's a shot or something for a heartworm. I don't know how I feel about that. I don't know. I would forget. Get, what are you talking about? You forget, especially if it's annual. I would forget to do it every three months or whatever. Oh, like Bravecto. Yeah. Bravecto is like a three month fee. I have a hard enough time with every month, but if you took a time away and I was, I would just run, I would forget. Mm-hmm. But, um, but some people like to have calendars on their phone. I give'em notifications. Right. Which I did when my dogs were in daycare. They had everything in the mm-hmm. The computer, but, Um, we don't, there's some things like if we're using something that works and it's effective and we can get it inexpensively, then we'll use that. We're, we don't just jump on a new product until it's been tried and tested and, and whatever. So there are a lot of new or flea treatments and combo treatments that we don't. Use or don't know that much about. Or they have like, you know, some side effects that are like kind of questionable. Yes. But I mean, everything has side effects, right? We used to love revolution and we still love it for a lot of reasons. But it doesn't work for ticks at all. Mm-hmm. And I was actually reading on one of the chat groups that it's not working great for fleas anymore either. Well, it depends on where you are. Yeah. Because in Florida, yeah. The fleas out of there. The fleas in Florida are out of, Controlling. Yeah. Like, they're so bad. I know it doesn't work for ticks because I put it on meatball. I work and he ended up with ticks. But. It works for ear mites, which is another reason why we like it. Mm-hmm. Especially for cats. Yep. And, and being a heartworm preventative, as long as we know the dog doesn't have heartworm to start. Exactly. And then, you know, like, so there were benefits to doing it that way. Mm-hmm. But, um, We've also gotten grants of flea treatment and we're gonna certainly use those instead of, buying it. so I think that covers our basic protocol, include testing and... Yeah, our basic protocol. I. We've got for, for cats, we've got the FVRCP, we've got the rabies. We've got a deworming protocol, and then we do, monthly. Revolution. Mm-hmm. And then for our dogs, we've got our protocol for their distemper parvo combo. And our bordetella. And our leptosporosis. Even though it's not a core, we do it. And rabies. Yep. Along with testing for heartworm when needed. And some of our pit bull babies, though sometimes they are more susceptible to dedex. Yes. And um, revolution is not that great that we found from Dex. It's great for Sarcoptic mange. So it's a Sarcoptic mite. And Sarcoptic mange is scabies. So that's one that people can get too. Exactly. So the dedex is we will use a NEX card mm-hmm. Um, for puppies. Mm-hmm. And then when they're older, the three month veta mm-hmm. And that helps our pit bulls especially. Yeah. They seem to be particularly susceptible to Yeah. But they have a lot of skin issues and allergies too. Well, I mean, everyone loves their blue babies, right? Mm-hmm. And they're gonna have, that's not a natural color. So when you have a dog that doesn't have a quote unquote natural color, it's gonna have, more skin issues because that's not the norm. Kind of like with the Dobermans, you've got your reds, your reds are gonna have more skin issues, your fawns, the silvers, whatever you wanna call'em. Mm-hmm. All the things that people like. Yeah. It's, yeah. It's not natural. Five hours later. That's about all we have time for. We've run down our review of the basics that we have, for our cats and our dogs, including vaccines, deworming, preventative, all that kind of stuff. So, if you have any questions, talk to your vet because they're the only one that can help you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We will start you out and give you all of our vaccinations that we've done for our dogs. And then your vet, we'll take it from there. Mm-hmm. Yep. And we have no problem with that. Nope. No. Alright then I am Jme. And I'm Pate. And this is our podcast and it's over And Rock On. Rescue on. You didn't say rescue shit. I dunno.